Back in 1997, David Stern convinced the NBA owners to help found and support the fledgling WNBA.The owners were promised a women’s league that would eventually turn a profit but instead have gotten a league with dwindling attendance even though the basketball product is superior by some standards.Attendance is way down in virtually every venue and where it is up, the numbers are hardly compelling to keep a franchise.The average attendance is somewhere around 8000 fans give or take a few hundred.The largest audience was in Los Angeles but the attendance was down 20% from last year.The average attendance in 1999 was 10,000.(Statistics for the WNBA)
The WNBA is losing money each year that it operates.The NBA pumps in millions to pay the salaries for the women, advertises like crazy for the WNBA during the men’s playoffs, (Personally, I hated "We got next" ads), and still the attendance is not there.The highest salary in the WNBA is only 85,000, but what is the future of this league?So why do they continue to promote and prop up this failure of a league?I would love for someone to answer because I can not think of one good reason.Personally, I think men prefer the men’s game and women who follow basketball prefer to watch the men as well.
For me the time to end this failed attempt at gender equality is long past.The NFL does not feel compelled to have a WNFL.MLB doesn’t need a WMLB.Let me say that I am not against women playing or having their own league, but what is the purpose of this league.In general, most franchises want to turn a profit which the WNBA clearly has not.For me the NBA has other issues to address as their own attendance is in decline due to rising ticket prices, the high cost of parking and concessions, and the image problems of some of the game’s brightest stars.It is just my opinion.I would love to know how women feel about the WNBA and if they watch the sport because I know most men do not.Also share your reason for why you think it has been a failure.I have my own ideas, but they would get me summarily booed by many on here, not that I have a problem with that but I will save it for my next post.
Also, it looks like my first pick of the Steelers is coming to true. That should justify this getting an NFL category.
And like I said in a previous blog, disbanding the WNBA can give the NBA the funds nessicary to start a real, honest to god, minor league system. Then they won't have to be afraid to have 18 year olds drafted.
College hoops is much different and teams are playing rivals. WNBA is played in June and July. It was put there to avoid competing with the NCAA and NBA Seasons because Stern knew no one would watch then. Little did he know that not many would watch during the summer either.
great post again buddy! Anyways, let's take this a step further, let's get rid of women's boxing! I can't stand it! Am I alone here? It doesn't matter to me how competitive it can be, I just can't watch two women fight. Even something about the word woman is a beauty to behold. By the way, isn't there a WNFL? Or something to that effect? I remember seeing an ad on TV.
Metswon, movies are always better than the real thing. Thanks Randy. I have a hard time watching women's boxing too, although Million Dollar Baby was a good movie in my opinion. If there is a woman's nfl, no one knows about it or cares. I seem to remember someone talking about it on one of those sports extras that no one watches. The salaries for those women would be less than the local 7-11 clerk. The highest WNBA salary is only 85k, so women in team sports are not making high dollar contracts. Individual women in sports like tennis and golf can make a decent living, but not in the WNBA and without the NBA money, it would be less.
OK, SoCal, you asked for it, so here it is. I DO go to WNBA games and so do about 15,000 other people per game here in Seattle (of course, this happened more after the Championship season). I have also coached women's basketball, and I would hate to see the league disappear totally. Superior female athletes are entitled to a place to showcase and perfect their skills, just like men are. Does the league need some revamping? Undoubtedly. But does it need to disappear? No.
Dud: There IS a semi-pro women's baseball league, and they even have a world series of their own, but it is a true world series; with teams from Japan, Canada, Austrailia, and so on. It's just that very few people hear about it, probably because men don't want to know that women can play baseball as well as they can (better in a lot of cases, because women have better hand eye coordination. The average batting average on some of these women's teams is over .600--especially the Japanese ladies). I started playing baseball when I was 13 (pitcher), and did so for many, many years. People tried to get me to switch to softball, but the only time I did, I broke my left hand because I figured that something that large and mushy (the ball) couldn't hurt me if I barehanded it (yeah, right).
WOMEN SHOULD BE ALLOWED THE SAME PRIVELDGE IF BY THEIR CHOICE. TODAY THERE ARE MORE YOUNG GIRLS INTERRESTED IN THE GAME THAN EVER. THEY HAVE BLOSSOMED ON EVERY LEVEL. HIGH SCHOOL GIRLS PLAY AS IF THEY ARE EAGER TO SHOW THAT THEY ARE AS GOOD AND EVEN BETTER THA THE BOYS. IT IS A SPORT AND WHY SHOULD WOMEN ONLY BE SUBJECT TO WOMANLY SPORTS...? ATTENDANCE ONLY MEANS THAT THERE IS NOT ENOUGH SUPPORT. WHY... IS IT REALLY STILL A MALE DOMINATE WORLD? IF THE ANSWER IS TRULY YES...THEN THAT MEANS IN TODAY'S WORLD IT IS STILL OK FOR THE WOMAN TO BE THE UNDER DOG! THERE SHOULD ALSO BE OTHER FEMALE LEAGUES. IT WOULD NOT HURT. PEOPLE THESE ARE OUR CHILDREN ALL GROWN UP. WE PAY FOR THEM TO PLAY AS CHILDREN...WHY NOT ALLOW THEM TO SHOWCASE THEIR TALENT AND GET PAID FOR IT. IT WOULD KEEP MANY GIRLS OUT OF TEOUBLE AND OFF THE STREETS...IT COULD HELP IN PREVENTING TEEN PREGNANCIES BY KEEPING THEM OCCUPIED WITH A FUTURE IN MIND.
Last edited by cbballwife on January 20th at 7:51 PM.
Sleepless, if you follow the link I posted, the attendance for the Seattle games is only around 7800 on average. I am not saying attendance is the only reason to can a sport. The men's attendance is dwindling as well. I do want a woman's opinion and coming from Pat Summitt country, the women's game in Knoxville is more important than the men's each year.
CBBallwife, the post doesn't say anything about women should not have the same opportunities as men. In fact, Title IX ensures that women will have the same opportunities, but in the professional world, does that mean the men have to pay for it? Can the women not find a woman's organization to fund it? What you are saying is that even though no one watches it, not enough women are really interested enough to go spend their money at a game, men should fund it. Do you really believe that?
Last edited by socalsportsfan on January 20th at 7:53 PM.
SOCALSPORTSFAN...THAT IS NOT WHAT I MEANT. FUNDING SHOULD COME FROM ALL PARTICPATING SPONSORS WHETHER MALE OR FEMALE. I MEANT THAT IF IT IS THE ATTENDANCE THAT IS DWINDLING THAN IT SHOULD BE LOOKED AT FROM AN OVERLL STAND POINT. I HAVE BOYS AND GIRLS THAT PLAY BASKETBABLL AND OTHER SPORTS TOO. IF MORE PARENTS WERE TO LEND SUPPORT THAN MORE WOMAN AND MOTHERS COULD ASSIST IN WAYS HELP SUPPORT THEIR DAUGHTERS AS WELL . THE NBA ASKED FOR THE LEAGUE AND SHOULD HAVE A HAND IN HELPING PAY FOR ITSELF, BUT NOT TOTALLY. IT SEEMS LIKE WOMAN WANT ALOT, BUT STOP SHORT OF WHERE AND HOW TO GET ALL THAT THEY NEED. I AM A FEMALE AND I STOP SHORT OF NOTHING TO GET WHAT IS NEEDED TO EXCEL IN LIFE. I KNOW THAT ALL WOMEN ARE NOT THAT WAY AND I JUST BELIEVE THAT IF SUPPORT STARTS AT HOME AND CONTINUES FORWARD THAN THERE COULD BE MORE ORGANIZATIONS TO HELP FUND ALL SPORTS NO MATTER THE GENDER
Actually, cbballwife made a good point. Am I a bad guy because I can't get into Women's sporting events? No. I agree that these are our little girls all grown up. If my daughter is talented enough to play ball in college then she should have a place to carry on her talent. Even though I don't follow it now, hopefully in 20 years it's still alive and prospering.
I think the nba as a business should disband the wnba. it's not because i'm sexest or whatever, but from a business standpoint the wnba doesn't make sense.
back in 1997, the nba could handle the wnba not doing very well and could continue to financially support them. now though ratings r down and nascar has usurped them as the third most popular sport (in my opinion and even though i hate nascar) i would rather see the nba's money go to se up a minor league system or get referees that actually do a good job.
Thanks for the comments CBBall and just. That is exactly what I asked for in my post, a reason to continue. I may not completely agree with the WNBA continuing and I am not sure it is viable, but that is the first solid argument I have heard from anyone. I just think the WNBA needs to get some women's organizations to step to the plate and pony up some money. There is very little advertising dollars coming in for the league and attendance is down and the NBA started it with the idea it would eventually make money. It hasn't and the contract expires in 2007. Someone better step up and support it or it will be dead.
Thanks Jr. I am not a nascar fan either...oops, I can not believe I let that slip...left turn, left turn, left turn...
Last edited by socalsportsfan on January 20th at 8:14 PM.
If it doesn't make money, there's no reason to continue it. I know it's noble and all for little girls to have athlete role models, but if they're the only ones who'll watch and care about the product (Well, and parents too) then it's not financially viable, plain and simple.
Nothing personal against women, it's just common business sense.
AS A BUSINESS WOMANMYSELF I UNDERSTAND ALL TOO WELL ABOUT WHAT DOES OR DOES NOT MAKE MONEY. INVESTMENTS MAKE MONEY. INVESTING IN OURSELVES AND OUR FUTURE MAKES MONEY?! INVESTING IN SPORTS AS A WHOLE WHETETHER FEAMLE OR MALE SHOULD BE OF IMPORTANCE BECAUSE IT CAN SEND EITHER A GOOD OR A BAD MESSAGE TO ALL UP AND COMING ATHLETES, BOTH MALE AND FEMALE. THERE ARE SPORTS, SUCH AS TENNIS AND GOLF WHERE THE DOLLAR AMOUNTS ARE HIGHER, BUT I CAN'T BUY INTO THE IDEA THAT THOSE SPORTS ARE HIGHER RATED BECAUSE THE FANS ARE ONLY WOME. FANS ARE BOTHMALE AND FEMALE. MY HUSBAND HAS BEEN COACHNIG BASKETBALL FOR YEARS AND HAS COACHED BOTH BOYS AND GIRLS...CURRENTLY HIGH SCHOOL FEMALES...AND YES BASKETBALL. ISEE SO MUCH IN THE THEM, JUST AS I SEE IT IN THE BOYS...WHAT WOULD BE WRONG IF WE INVESTED IN THE FUTURE OF ALL SPORTS WHETEHER MALE OR FEMALE SO THAT BLOGS OF THIS NATURE WOULD BE MORE POSITIVE.
cbball, I told you I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I just think the NBA is going to drop its committment after 2007. Tennis makes more money for the individuals because of the corporate sponsorship deals. That is my point exactly. The WNBA needs more sponsors and as of right now their only one is really the NBA. Someone needs to step up if they want to save it. It will not be from the selling of apparel or TV contracts because they are not a factor. Fans buy NBA gear first not WNBA. Just my opinion, but I am not saying the WNBA is bad, just no one wants to fund it.
Yes, Stern convinced all the NBA teams in 1997 to support the WNBA. But after the 2002 season, the NBA sold the WNBA teams to their NBA counterparts or to third-parties. 2 teams were forced to move and 2 more folded before the 2003 season, 1 more after the 2003 season. So the entire NBA has not supported the WNBA since the 2002 season.
There are roughly 150 players in the WNBA. Rookies average $30,000. Players with 3 years of experience are guaranteed $45,000. I don't think that the amounts of these 150 players total would equal anywhere near the amounts of even 10 of your lowest pine boys off an NBA bench, since the minimum salary for an NBA rookie is about $400,000.
There have been numbers of businesses who have sponsored or are continuing to sponsor the WNBA teams. So I don't believe that the NBA counterparts are footing the entire bill for the expenses of the WNBA.
In 2004, the WNBA players thought more of playing in the Olympics than they did of playing in their new league and WNBA play was shut-down for an entire month while the league's best players took part on the USA team in Athens. We'd never see that type of commitment from the NBA if the roles were reversed. American children, not just girls, need to see these type of role-models.
I don't believe that the NBA's problems of declining ticket sales and poor attendance should kill the heartbeat of the WNBA. In fact, arenas that normally hold NBA games are sometimes empty during the summer months because of the over-abundance of outdoor concerts in stadiums.
Last edited by josettedupres on January 21st at 1:45 AM.
Socal, nice post. A lot of good ideas thrown around. I've been to several Connecticut Sun games, including the finals against Seattle two years ago. It was the same crowd, basically, that you get for UConn women's games. I don't know how it breaks down per team, but I understand that the Sun actually make money. Then again, they play in a casino, so they get some spillover.
I was a huge basketball fan growing up, and actually wrote a blog earlier about why I don't love the sport anymore. One of the reasons I cited was the loss of fundamental skills. A minor league would certainly help instill an appreciation for defense and boxing out. And truth be told, that's why I like watching UConn women sometimes. They know how to play fundamental basketball, and execute it better than most men you'll ever see.
Josette, you are right about the salaries and the committment to go play in the Olympics. As far as several companies sponsoring the ladies, I have not heard of any. If they have other sponsors, then the NBA agreement which ends in 2007 would not matter, so as far as the research I did prior to this post, everything I found says they are primarily still underwritten by the NBA. If you have a resource, please post it for me. How much the ladies make is irrelevant if someone else if funding it. Salaries in the entertainment business are all about revenue. Make no mistake, the NBA, WNBA, and all professional sports are about entertainment. Actresses today make just as much as actors if they are top in the business because they bring in people to the cinema.
Crook, yes the ladies play a more fundamentally sound game, but dunks put people in the seats. I prefer watching HS Bball in person and I do enjoy college games.
Important entity is missing: Dunks. Great pick and roll and dish down deep for the lay in. But people want to see women dunk. They want to see women like Candace Parker streak down the lane and rip the net slam style. Perhaps they lower the rims a shade to allow this to happen?
Last edited by James_M_Morisete on January 21st at 5:59 AM.
Good post. It's something nobody seems to be talking about. I wonder if the league would do better if it was in markets without NBA teams or much competition. You might draw more in the midwest and south than in some of the NBA cities.
I think James is onto something. After reading all the posts I also think maybe what the NBA is doing is right. If you're paying guys on the bench $1.5 million, why not just run the WNBA as a loss leader. It may be a 20 year project to get it going, but if they have the money and want to do it they should.
And there in lies the question Dudski, do they want it? I think originally they thought it would turn a profit. Some owners may decide to keep ponying up the money, but others may not. The salaries are not that much, but there is money lost in operating the venues and advertising that is not being factored into the equation. Those that are pro WNBA will spin that it doesn't cost that much, but if that were true we would not have a debate and the NBA would not even consider shutting it down. You can spin numbers anyway you want to prove a point, but attendance doesn't lie. If the NBA wants to pump money into it, I say let them. It isn't my money, but does it affect ticket prices for the men's games and every other revenue stream?
Did a little research on the owners of some of the WNBA teams. Here's what I dug up:
Connecticut Suns - first team to be owned independently by Mohegan Indian Tribe of Connecticut.
Charlotte Sting - original sister team of the Charlotte Hornets, now owned by Robert L. Johnson, founder of Black Entertainment Television.
Detroit Shock - Mr. William Davidson, who is also owner of the Detroit Pistons.
Seattle Storm - Howard Schultz owner. He is also StarBucks Chairman.
Los Angeles Sparks - Johnny Buss, son of Los Angeles Lakers owner Jerry Buss.
Chicago Sky - Michael Alter. Alter is the President of the Alter Group, one of the largest private commercial real estate developers.
San Antonio Silverstars - Peter M. Holt, CEO of Holt Cat, largest Caterpillar owner of the United States. Also owner of the San Antonio Spurs.
Sacramento Monarchs - Maloof family, who also owns the Sacramento Kings. Maloof family also owns casinos and hotels in Las Vegas.
Minnesota Lynx - Glen A. Taylor, an American businessman billionaire. He also owns the Timberwolves and tried desperately to own the Vikings.
New York Liberty - Cablevision Systems Corporation.
Phoenix Mercury - Jerry Colangelo. Colangelo also owns a majority of major sports franchises in Arizona.
So from the list of the owners above, it seems as though the WNBA is not being footed solely by the NBA and it has now become a venture for private business owners.
Last edited by josettedupres on January 21st at 9:06 AM.
Josetteddupres..........they are rare...Lisa Leslie dunks as does the woman I mentioned earlier, but most can just lay the ball in because the rims are too high.
This whole WNBA deal is going to be fine. Things like this take time to grow.
In my opinion, the days of the NBA having to support the WNBA ended when Stern let the owners decide for themselves if they wanted to take part in the WNBA on their own after the 2002 season. Two WNBA teams moved and one closed because of those owners decisions.
The financial responsibility is the owners individually - not the NBA's as a whole. Every owner had the right to turn it's back on the new league. But some did not.
Regardless if they own their NBA counterparts or not, the WNBA as a whole is a separate entity, if it fails or survives will not be because of the NBA participation or lack of participation. Just like the fate of the women's league will not change all the problems the NBA faces every day.
Last edited by josettedupres on January 21st at 11:24 AM.
Josette while a few of the teams are privately owned, your examples at the top just show they are all owned by the NBA owners just with another corporation name. Maloof family, Buss family, BET owners of Charlotte Hornets. San Antonia and Pistons also NBA owners. The point is that the NBA has a contract with the WNBA even if the teams are owned independently those owners are counting on the money from the NBA. It is like sort of like the Yankees taking ARod knowing the Rangers have to keep paying the largest part of the payroll. These owners know the NBA is footing the bill. I hope that makes sense, but only time will tell if they will succeed, my guess is no, but thanks for the links. I will check them out later today.
Also, if women like you who once played basketball but have no time for the WNBA and support it in only word, but not deed, how can it survive. That is my main point from all of this. Men certainly do not care for the game so women need to stand up if they want it to stay.
Last edited by socalsportsfan on January 21st at 11:06 AM.
Women should have their fair shot at playing ball professionally too. I remember before the WNBA was founded one of the girls in my church youth group who was very talented at playing basketball and loved the sport was disappointed she would not be able to play the sport any higher than school. I felt bad for her, and thought of her when the WNBA became a reality.
With that said, the product just isn't as exciting to me as the NBA or NCAA basketball. I have occassionally tuned in to watch Women's NCAA Basketball, but still have yet to watch a WNBA game. It just doesn't interest me. Once the NBA season ends, its nothing but baseball for me until the NFL and College Football get back underway.
Good post SoCal.
P.S. I was not a big fan of the "We Got Next" ads either.
Last edited by Gbrent on January 21st at 11:19 AM.
Good post socal, as usual. I don't think the WNBA should exist. I have yet to watch one full game and I barely made it through one quarter. I think it should go the way of the XFL, another big flop. Women have college hoops and that remains popular, even here in North Dakota where our Bison team has been very popular and very good.
I'm not against women having their own league, I just don't think it should have to be co-sponsered by the NBA. It will never be "prime time". Let an independent league form up and only where there is a demand for it.
Passing judgements on me because I do not watch the WNBA now even though I once played the game basketball shouldn't be the issue here.
You don't honestly believe that sports like golf or ice skating are only spectated by the women who were once little girls who grew up hoping to play or skate professional one day, do you?? Do you think no men watch these sports?? Or that women who never touched a club nor donned a pair of skates wouldn't be interested in sitting and watch an event??
You can visit my posts and see what interests me. Just because I don't follow the WNBA like it's my sister doesn't mean I don't care for it's success.
You asked for a woman's opinion. This is mine. I don't feel anyone can accurately submit that this league will fail based solely on these women pulling in half the attendance that the NBA pulls, because they make just a little bit more than the average Jane at a regular job, or because the NBA has it's own struggles and doesn't know to stop the vicious cycle that it is in right now with such things as fights in the crowds, outrageous ticket prices or rising concession prices.
As for supporting the league in word only; I am perfectly content on blogging about the Bears, or the Sixers, or my daily routines for the rest of my life. I came to your post and supported the league in word only because you came to my post and asked for my opinion.
Hey Josette, I did ask for your opinion. I am not attacking it either. I am really neutral on the whole WNBA thing, it just makes for a good post. It is controversial. I do want a woman's input and I thank you for it. My point is that most women who say they value the WNBA but they don't really care for it. I think most women who are sports minded enjoy watching the men's game and for that reason I think the WNBA will eventually fold. Do I think women who play in the LPGA and ice skate started early, actually, yes. Most skaters start at an early age and women golfers are almost all coming up playing in high school and college.
No - if you read my posts that's not what I asked.
I asked if you feel that the only people who spectate a sport are the ones who have actually tried it themselves.
My point is not every fan that sits in the seats were once players. There are plenty of men who follow womens sports who never played the game they are watching. Or there are plenty of women who watch the games, thinking, wow, I wish I had done that when I was younger.
So no, I don't think the WNBA needs me to watch the league to succeed. Because that would just be false. People who spectate such sports do so because they love to, not because they once played the game. Men watch. Women watch who never played. And women who played watched.
bottom line: The WNBA is losing money, ratings are going down it is not good.
It shouldn't be about gender - it should be about business. But, if we want to talk about gender then I can say this... one of my best friends plays college basketball for minnesota state and even she cant stand to watch the WNBA.... it just isn't good in many peoples opinions.
As a sports fan, I watch what I feel is a fun sporting event to watch. I have tried on numerous occassions to get into the WNBA but I cannot. The first thing they need to do is change the #### ball, that irritates me.
But I don't like the WNBA not because it is played by women. I love watching Women's Tennis in Toronto every two years because I enjoy the rallies. In men's tennis, its serve, return, smash point. In women's tennis, the points go longer and therefore its entertaining.
I also love watching Women's international hockey. The game is pretty smooth to watch and the Canada v. US games have been classics.
Lastly, I can watch Annika Sorenstam every single weekend because she is damn good. This isn't a women's thing for me, its a product thing when it comes to not embracing the WNBA.
HAVING READ AND REALLY PAID ATTENTION SO CAL AND OTHERS FROM THE BIZ SAND POINT...IN THE FUTURE WNBA MAY BE VIABLE AND IT MAY TAKE SOME MORE COMPETITIVE LEAGUES OVER SEAS. ALOT OF OTHER SPORTS INCLUDING TENNIS N'SUCH ARE WORLD WIDE SPORTS, NOT JUST NATIONWIDE. SOMETHINGS ARE JUST BEFORE THEIR TIME AND THE WNBA WILL HAVE TO STEP UP OR OUT.
Last edited by cbballwife on January 23rd at 9:28 PM.
To compare the limited sucess of the WNBA with the current success of the NBA is not fair. It would be better to compare the NBA at the start of its tenth season with the WNBA at the start of its tenth (current) season.
The NBA began with 19 teams, by its tenth season it had dropped to 8 with only 5 in their original cities.
The WNBA began with 8 teams, in its tenth season it has grown to 14 with 6 of the original teams in their original cities. The fact that one of the original and two expansion teams failed or that one original and one expansion team have relocated does not diminish the fact that for a start-up league it has done very well.
Sports team ownership is a traditional way for rich men to squander away their money. The secret to survival for a team in any league is to loose money at a rate that is slow enough to stay within the owner's comfort level. Sports teams are a business only when the owner needs an excuse for relocating the team or cutting a popular player/coach. In real life, sports teams are as much a hobby for the owners as they are for the fans. If profit were the motive we would have few major league franchises and no minor league franchises in any sport.
Back in 1997, David Stern convinced the NBA owners to help found and support the fledgling WNBA.
